it

Abortion: how late is 'too late'?

I experienced total speak for about 10

minutes and

discussion I'll introduce the speakers

in the order of their feet and first our

guests from the United States is being

selected from the world and his driver

to New York City for me for Washington

sorry for his mess with her department

here mind eraser in his slate and he

writes the human economy from in science

technology qualities this occurs at

magazines and journals biography on the

website and he's the author of very very

conservative on my right is everything's

been the chief exec officer of this

pregnancy vital services 2003 before

that to the director policy impress

humanization and Embryology Authority

solution

into your research and sister Concepcion

be fast specializes in late portion and

provide other 70% of those take place in

Britain she didn't extend to be a choice

coalition what a pass and they were

comfortable everyday practice for this

session something that doesn't happen

often as these discussions on momenta

are taken vote and after opinion is

ready to stand on the system before

discard

so should abortion be time limited the

law says it's critical we expect when I

must be nervous are you in favor of time

limits should there be

are you in favor chocolates or straight

of all should be available as late as

necessary so those in favor of abortion

available as a

in favor of tablets

okay so the question that was most what

is how late is too late I'm going to

violate the rules like not answering

that question I think there are too many

people who come to have definitive

answers and what I would rather do with

witnesses back to their put some things

on the table and the whole day we can

have a conversation and think about how

they relate

um I thought I had a handout and I hope

everybody has a copy of that I don't but

it has a lot of numbers on that at all

indeed were saying a bunch of numbers so

we have

this direction through it the first page

we'd wanted that handout has polling

data on it and I don't propose that

total should resolve any issue for you

but I put these numbers here

think of it personally you come from a

perspective of bleeding in women's

rights or personal freedom if you look

at polling data in the United States and

United

over the last 30 years years you see

massive massive shift in public opinion

on questions of the role of women and

questions first of all economy so in the

UK you can see your British social

attitudes survey ships out of 24 to 30

points on questions of women staying

home when they have kids whether the

West job is look at the home and family

you see that ships on sexuality on the

rights of lesbian couples you see shifts

on the question of whether things are

long you see huge shifts in same sex sex

marital sex extramarital sex that was

stupid me to put in to be not long at

all figure I did that Burt both numbers

parallels one can't fault but I assure

you that you look at the same question

on in terms of people who the percent of

you said always were most statement

there was in fact a net ship in the

conservative direction on extramarital

sex over this over there's 30 years on

it when we get you a fortune we don't

see that shift okay we see in fact

shifting the office correction on

a survey asked about whether fortune is

long so we're seeing people moving on

questions of personal autonomy people

remain on questions of women's rights

women's role not moving on abortion why

and I will point out one other thing

that I did not know this from the same

British attitude survey you will be

pulling on capital punishment from 1986

to 2009 the percentage of people who

said that their son cries the death

penalty of the appropriate sentence that

went from the ten people who leave it

that one from 74 to 55 so nearly a 20

point drop over this period so perhaps

there is some question whether some

people are saying this insurance about

life not here in terms of choices if

people get data in the u.s. will see the

same patterns on homosexuality

premarital sex marriage if the an online

at Camaro set so some morals are moving

in some are saying the same and I'm not

going to write per se all the other day

you can just glance

see the same pattern the one I you want

to point you to is that the third one is

it alright for a wife to refuse to have

children a husband at once that is a

straightforward question about women's

rights easily the man and a child the

right amount to their children and their

cat better you see it's a significant

shift in the pro-choice direction on

that question but not on proportion as

you see the abortion numbers have gone

in the other direction

so again polls don't settle this but

they should make a stink and I think my

proposal is that they should make us

realise that there is more to this issue

than feminism or personal autonomy that

working is not just an issue of personal

rights

he was an issue of one person growing

inside another and I am NOT saying that

personhood begins at conception I do not

believe that ok that's not the way life

is what I am saying is that personhood

grows and that it does so during

gestation you look over the second page

says development study of gestation I

put this need to be the sources for this

at the bottom there's no right to life

or death

from here this is either the Royal

College of Obstetricians and

Gynecologists several other sources that

I trust so it's a composite timeline but

what I want you to notice is how early

these development to these capacities

begins and how continuous it is we

talked about by those we talked about

what happens at 20 or 22 or 24 weeks but

what you'll notice is you're starting to

see that is really is week 3

differentiation of tissues you starting

to see the beginnings of the nervous

system as early as week 6 you starting

to see networking within the brain at

around 8 9 12

you should I see movements at weeks 13

in the six thirteen thirteen to fourteen

you're starting to see rudimentary

perception at week 16 and you're

starting to see every 18 what they call

brain generated stress response to

tissue damage now this is not pain i

there's been a lot of debate about fetal

pain America legislation of the state

going around the United States to ban

horses the 20 weeks show based on some

times earlier based on people came pain

it's a very complicated question I we

just don't have evidence

and there is that convey the Royal

College says you can't have it until you

have completely wireless system so high

I think the pain debate is a distraction

but I want one of you sees the develops

of the nervous okay they're respected of

that if you go beyond so that's all what

I just described but when we go to week

22 to wait 23 you're sure to see their

pattern recognition and fetal behavior

we're saying the situation responses

involved because it is in some sense

Gelasius cognate but it is recognizing

certain patterns of stimuli and respond

accordingly that's all happening all

that's happening before the legal 24

week limit so there's a lot of

development that has happened there so

what I want you to gather see if this is

the via oh the growth of the rational

capacities that signified personhood is

a gradual process okay and it is

underway long before the legal and

that's abortion rights and you know Ann

has written in some of our exchange

online I think she asked is there

anything proposed is there anything to

follow up qualitatively different about

a fetus that say 28 weeks

that gives it a warming different set to

a fetus at 18 weeks or even eight weeks

this timeline is my answer to that

question and and you know if you go

beyond a 24 week when you start to see

that you see lung lung capacity we're

starting to see essentially viability

development of lungs and reach 24 to 28

a huge progress in brain construction

there's one at 24 28 is not what about

three

weeks so if we were we've dropped that

28 is you're talking you're talking

about I mean at 28 weeks you can see

here on the timeline it says spontaneous

brain activity of cortical orange that I

believe is scientific for thinking that

is thinking that you're saying so

viability and cognitive development

which I think should concerns let me

skip to the reasons why women are having

these abortions the I put on page four

idea

now component of us the reasons that are

given here the number one reason of

everything in the US for having a second

trimester were solicited with a long

time to make arrangements I think that

the American health care system more

than anything else but you will get the

difference between second trimester and

first trimester abortions the biggest

difference is women who say you took a

long time to decide that is the biggest

differentiator and I think we spoke a

little talk today about the reasons why

wouldn't take long to decide why those

women I don't think this is a huge

number of women but we should talk about

the reasons for it if you look at data

in the UK it's it's a little bit

different in studying in England and

Wales from 2005 the number one reason

given by women who had second progress

as to why it took as long as it did was

quote I was not sure about having the

abortion hedge me awhile to make my mind

and asked for one if I had just a couple

of minutes to go anymore

because and in what I think is a

commendable acting candor published a VP

is a list of 32 women it was in front

end area four week period in 2008 she

just published what what their faith

reasons were for their can what their

circumstances were and what their shape

the reasons were for seeking the

abortion and if you look through these

women who are at the bottom of that page

for monthly these clients three of them

are talking about me I had push it out

of my mind I found the decision hard to

make these are not this is not the only

reasons there are lots of other women

he's totally wretched circumstances I'm

sure no man will bring this up but these

five cases to me are problematic and if

you look at the third and fifth one the

client client 80 and she says by the

first I decided the community continue

the pregnancy and then she says she sort

of changed her mind based on some

certain Zenji but she couldn't cope with

the child I hope we will talk today

about separating two acts separated a

choice to how abortion from the choice

as to when you have you wish once you

know you're pregnant

my argument is delay is either a choice

or it's something for which you bear

some responsibility and even if you have

freedom of choice you don't have the

right to wait and wait and wait to make

that decision you have a moral

obligation to make it as as

expeditiously as irresponsibly can and

the last woman I just wanted to say she

says 25 was not aware that there was a

legal time limit on abortion so didn't

feel the need to act how do we develop a

mindset that whatever is legal is more

all that without a legal time limit

there's no need to act quickly

and should we talk today perhaps about

whether we didn't what is legal we

should try to discuss what is moral

perhaps influence women's choices or

encourage women's choices to be more

more

well that's all for making when I think

of some rich and interesting remarks in

relationship to this debate I think it

is incredibly good to take it beyond the

usual head-to-head principled opposition

to abortion as opposed to principal

position I don't say that the reason why

we're having the same I think is because

there's been quite a strong argument I

think you put it well the people that

you work with in the US that continued

support for nature abortions as a

problem because it is undermining

support the early abortions as well it's

become a burden and a barrier to

approaches we should get it up a little

bit and I think that you give an

indication of that in your final remarks

when you're kind of making the point

that well abortion better carry just

about but if we're going to do it as

possible to make sure

because it's generally a bad day so we

like to see less of it and certainly

like to see if earlier rather than later

and I think it does worry some important

issues for us because I think that where

you're absolutely right is the public

opinion on late abortion is very shaped

it is something that I think all of us

that are involved in an abortion care

advocacy quite quite difficult because

people look and they dismiss and it

looks it looks like a baby it's clearly

much closer to about it and it provokes

a much more visceral response in people

very emotional scene of people like

inducing a beauty libel and I think that

there is also a sense that the world is

found that certainly was as astronomer

sounding in British public opinion that

contraception fails and we found new

client care

very strongly and so therefore willing

do need some access to but that can be

done early on

so I think that we can proceed that this

there's a problem I think what we have

been an asshat outfit is whether or not

there needs to be any policy

intervention or any social intervention

to change or to regulate what's really

going on at the moment and and I like

you that we do I think that there is no

evidence to suggest that we need to

restrict later abortion in any way by

legal limit

I certainly think the doctors amusing

situation for indeed women abusing

situation

so I think that we have to look

therefore at whether or not whether a

moral or a social reason why we should

restrict abortions whether or not the

Sun impact other than that on the

individual women that means that we

should make changes I think that's

really where you and I do profoundly

disagree I'm very pleased you throughout

this address that identifies the

developments by week of gestation so you

would it is

that there are big change in the

abortion trades me what it does is in

some ways illustrate my document there

isn't any profit points which you can

say there is a difference between water

another hundred except that abortion

subsidy may be done and I think that we

have to really ask ourselves very

clearly who decides when late is too

late if you have the capacity to make

that decision you have the right to

intervene in that because it's very

changing negative it's nothing very much

what people circumstances and I think

the very other decisions that must be

taken about the people who are most

involved in not policymakers and not

journalists million people like being

actually because what I would say is

that you know wouldn't make decisions

about abortion in the context

and the refer woman who would fail but

11 weeks in April or 10 minutes in April

because of that personal circumstances

there are other women you facing the

decision quite later on in pregnancy

will so that they can no longer bear to

carry that child to term and I really

questioned why if there is no objective

reason those objectives some value chair

English

really

the right to override her own subjective

because I basically think that any

definition of what basically is is

arbitrary and it is subjective the only

thing that I'm actually defense say

where there is possibly that there is

something that in public opinion there

is a kind of visual spectrum of life but

my only reason is adjusting that is to

be acceptable Catholic abortion had a

detrimental effect on society now I

really don't think it does I think the

very men of science the number of ladies

will be requesting make abortion is

increasing it remains very much today

girls the idea but we can override who

decides these positions have a

detrimental effect on society

yes I'm really living that balance

because in what we're saying when we say

that somehow an earlier time than it

needs to be impertinence is that we

don't trust women's decisions

never trust daughters and you know it is

that they have individually different

these things because I really felt sorry

looks like this

each of them had compelling reason in

their own way and that the idea of

compelling those women to conceal

pregnancy was somehow really off the

table because we have to remember that

that's the uncertainty that when we turn

around and say he's requesting abortion

of 20 weeks but she should have

requested it earlier the workers that we

should do is trust women to make their

decisions because they will look at

themselves in the mirror every day

through their life decisions of a pony

we should trust doctors to make the

decision without other people say and

they're flexible for that and as far as

possible we should keep policymakers

away from it we should try an opinion

well I think that the potential argument

is an argument made a lot by polite

people who will be the light and

conceptions you have a potential that

you say give the Danakil right away that

burrows a you so to me the potential

argument doesn't what I'm trying to make

is a natural are a man come on and if

argued about actual capacities that

these phases because the since potential

is that you say it's dissident and

unfolding on the very beginning the

whole program is there

Robbie Georgian what conservatives made

some tea that doesn't capture the

essence the fact that below the Peter

says pretend the embryo is potential

from the beginning the actual status is

changing and I don't think to refer back

that bone yet I don't think other people

who came to any tears and a great

advantage right what is what what what I

learned are you in spirit is this is

totally immature women's rights

it's absolutely immature immature it's

just not only initially women's rights

okay it is it is me pregnancy I mean if

you're a woman this is something that

you think about it your body your hands

like you know guys this is one person

literally growing inside another person

that's why it's essentially complicated

and it's not that way it could be gay

it's that way at the end and so there's

this gradual process going on in which

what starts out as a question of other

completely of what if the right to

contraception to me is a no-brainer

that's a that's a question of personal

time and then now you can see well so

now we're the best you that you can take

a morning-after pill you're dealing with

very kind of in real estate when every

other flush all the time it's not me the

kind of clear wine but then as we go

longer and longer in the process we have

more and more time for the choice to be

exercised and on the other side you have

a greater and greater

actual rational capacity on part of the

fields and so the balance begins to

shift and the question me is at what

point have we moved from our women's

rights framework to for the direction of

away

us too

yes it doesn't

what I think until you is City nine are

going to end the pregnancy finder early

infancy or later means essentially

exactly the same thing which is that

it's denying her the ability to have a

final say in her life in a way that we

don't even insist on we're talking about

the responsibilities between mothers and

their launch and so to use an example on

this very very briefly what you're

saying is that in pregnancy a woman has

a responsibility to a fetus with 26

weeks the I perhaps move out through my

child at 28 months and when I mean like

that we made two years succeeded what I

mean by that is good get from my child's

required a kidney or a bone marrow

transplant at me to Vegas life I could

not be compelled you might think it

would be morally reprehensible for me to

refuse to do that for me

but you could not compel me to do and

you know what we're saying is with

abortion but a woman should be to take

away her abilities itself in what goes

on around the body for the benefits a

potential or a life that does not even

know that it's alive and I find that

deeply troubling because I think that

wants me basically saying that within

ability to exercise the autonomy

like several things either butters on

your bed yeah al Qaeda I found really

nicely and then just looking on the

table and we can talk about the

chance point about the there is that

there's sort of an arbitrary or

subjective aspect to these these

thresholds along the way of development

there's no clear point when we can draw

a line and therefore you know we you're

going to be against new studio the very

beginning that is by the way they are

the pro lectures that you have it so to

my mind I wanted something very curious

position advances of arguing a feeling

when I had these exchanges with aunt I

do feel as though I'm having the same

are you not out with the pro bikers and

then things are but like this not like

that it's not clear getting under that

sometimes actually physically I'm afraid

when I hear a knocking don't stay that

is the first of all I don't agree with

it the secondly that you're totally

lending credibility to the argument and

the other side but they know I trust and

handle our own in that debate with them

the UM the but but the other thing I

want to say about that is um this

timeline that I gave you

I mean I ran out of space on the page I

said I'm unstoppable it doesn't end at

birth it doesn't and pepper okay if you

look at that water grant article that's

an argument

the emergence of consciousness and they

go on and they talk about the

development of cognitive capacities

after birth okay

it isn't we were three years old that

you have full capacity for memory people

don't remember about that on the brain

is changing capacity changing

why isn't Birth just another arbitrary

life right we really need to talk about

whether any lines can be drawn and if we

can draw at birth or at viability then

we are already in the business of

deciding based on this information you

know that there is a demand as an

allowable legal time limit I think I

want to say one other thing and that was

OU

and point about who decides this is the

pro-choice matter and I am creating

general food principle of food is up but

two things one remember this is not a

debate between two people who disagree

about whether whether it should have the

right shoes this is the made about the

web okay I understand that it's still an

important restriction but it is saying

you can you can be pro-choice and we've

open the question of whether it's

whether that should be left up and

secondly this isn't this is not you know

the good side right MIT is that things

are too subjective for the law keep

doing that my line is not subjective

okay it doesn't vary enormously on

pregnancy rate that is objective

information and the law is entitled make

to discuss you to examine objective and

drawing lines and as to trusting women

to make decisions look I'm all for trust

but women are not angels

that men okay some women like some men

will make bad decisions right the law

it's not as that we should say what we

don't have and I'm not I don't want to

equate abortion with marriage okay but

we have audience murmur and lots of

other things

even if order is rarely practiced we

don't say we're gonna trust and

relatively peaceful Society and so we're

not gonna have a lot but we have lost

four people at the extreme and so I

let's not to be a patron I say we should

trust so far that even in the most

happening you know bigger cases

you guys probably Gosnell case in United

States the Philadelphia gosh okay it's

illegal operations right so let's

stipulate that but there's a case in

there where a woman has an abortion at

29 weeks she comes she comes into the

abortion in the middle of the process

she finds out that the doctor is going

to burn the fetal remains and she

changes her mind okay that's at 29 weeks

all right after all the brain

construction of the point where the

point so look there are just people that

there are men and women who are you know

you're out an area it's crazy and some

doctor do that and and and for those

extremes I propose that the law should

draw a line right

about potential like freezers do you see

kind of that I'm going to Amazon

University using unwilling that we never

scientist were to say when anything

actually like this movie because you

know the potential applicants musings in

actual life and the our team have said

so far when that is then potty training

their situation and

only follow along from chapters

back there you did describe this

continuum of evolving person to move

throughout stages in you pointed out

quite right in this action continues

after birth so I just have just for the

sake of exactly to you precision what do

you think constitutes versus rationally

scientifically what is it universal

human need begins with way that section

conceive a lot

what is human being because being person

is human being a price and also in that

paper way leave their collections before

is it computing questions like what to

come there are bad doctors and

everything and I think to even begin to

discuss back you sort of example but

more importantly I wanted to talk about

the facts of people development and how

do I think about that because I just

finished a study actually talks to women

about how they thought their fetuses

should be disposed of

warship and whether or not there should

be some sort of different service and he

managed differently from other forms of

clinical waste like for example an

appendix so should there be human rights

commission miscarriages there was a

recognition that there were mild

students that mattered to them when

things might change but there was he's a

little instability around those

mountains somewhere which had to do with

their own personal knowledge that when

development nevertheless for some

nominated however that did not mean that

they couldn't distinguish between their

own ability to cherish and want one

pregnancy and not want or reject another

pregnancy and it was because it wasn't

the facts of fetal development that

matter in terms of making a decision

about abortion at a particular stage

with age but the facts of having a child

and how they were going to manage that

in their current

contents that really matter in the next

sort of 18 plus years that's what really

have it knots which helps them make a

decision and I think that your assertion

that we should be hoping to be more

moral in their decisions about having

abortions earlier and not recognizing

that actually taking time to consider

whether the fact of that trials should

actually take some time to execute and

that that actually is a moral Act it's

highly problematic and I think it's

certainly ascribing blindly to dictate

about is extremely

all right I think that you know the

immediate question really is not when

does life begin because I think

conception what about I think that's a

very relative way we believe when people

can work in

every woman who has lots of pregnancy

she's dealing with a very different

situation I think that that's really why

I played there in degree of subjectivity

about biological beginning because I

think you can't be a bit pro-choice

they're pregnant run basically saying

that with trusting women doctors

students or basically

with results I think this will make more

point on the first points because I'm

thoroughly accept a thoroughly

exceptional point of view of the thesis

there is nothing magical about passing

through the book that transforms it from

fetus into

it's all me actually what makes the

difference what I think doesn't in the

actuality that was which i think is very

much identified as object relative sense

of itself

consciousness recognizes being in its

own right but that's completely

different from the abortion faith

because what is completely different

about the moment is that there is no

longer after the actual delivery at the

birth that conflict that I was

suggesting in most important to me which

is the undeniable woman's bubbly

autonomy that her decision about what

happens to her own body because what

does that channel is for how it is

Dallas Lee is something that is entirely

separate to the questions are probably

individual autonomies that's right for

me that is

Oh

to the two questions about what

constitutes persons good one

well what I think is I disent it's very

well I I put this information out so

because I hope that we can all discuss

this I I mean I think the big let life

begins like doesn't really we can't like

the cycle it goes on and even even

honestly I look at fertilization and

that's complicated there are a lot of

dotted lines and process of

fertilization but so I'm I'm

uncomfortable trying to try to answer

that for you since I mean we cannot

arrive at an answer we can discuss that

as to what constitutes personhood I

think basically rational capacity and so

the development of certain abilities in

the womb to me I mean rational capacity

is developing it's not you know throw a

switch and all of a sudden an embryo

becomes a baby the alternative to that

imaginary at you is that these

capacities develop gradually over time

to um mostly question of the person you

asked about the Gosnell case you said

that it's that experience that

introduced that offended I don't think

that's fair

I mean somehow we did into abortion now

whenever there was something bad there's

a plainly you know this is there that

some terrible cases way later than

people would be English this world or

some dr. kremens we say well that's an

outlier understand why we have this

exception for abortion be should be like

any other medical issue or any other

issue of personal choice where it you

know there is regulation of the extreme

through this we didn't we face their

schooling we don't say that somehow we

were attacking the whole concept of the

right to choose if you could be debate

whether the extreme can should be

permitted to go on that way the question

about its moral to take you that the

person said it's moral to take your time

I think I agree with that we need to

take some time to think what I want to

suggest to you is that there is a cost

okay the by all means don't Ryan and you

know this Russian decision if you just

not have been pregnant but some of these

cases these women put is months and

months okay and there is a cost to wait

and the cost is what is in that fund and

so I think that we needed we need to

face that the the question of oh I've

heard an and from some at your the word

matter what mattered to the woman okay

and then what matters the woman who who

wants to have a baby that the embryo the

the idea in Rio is that matters already

not everything in this world is

subjective okay

not an if there are operative effect in

that embryo is not the same thing as a

fetus at 24 22 to 24 weeks and that is

an objective fact about the rational

capacity to being and then the last

thing I wanted to say was balance oh we

can't be a little bit more choice yeah

actually you can you can you can say I

believe in a right that the right has

limits okay

and the and I am I guess I would ask

given this timeline I mean that

everything is artitude is it okay to

abort never mind 24 weeks is it okay to

abort at 28 weeks is it okay to at 32

weeks is it okay given that we would

agree that there are changes after birth

to kill a neonate to kill a newborn

child on the basis that is another

arbitrary line maybe the public has some

feelings about it but objectively you

know which market if it's hard to draw

these lines are we denying the rights of

the baby

so and I'll be compromising the rights

to baby for the rights of women and the

girl doesn't have a lots ability to

protect this same running because once a

day before that got to protect it and

not let someone kill Urtz and why does

it change

just a few expressions and I think the

early stages that you see are not

denying the fact that you are denying a

international incident a music that were

statistically let's go choice but

they're not actually having fewer

abortions so I think what was what my

data tells us is as a big gap between

practice and belief we're not actually

changing in terms of I think the gap

between that might have to do with

feelings like compromise new rituals the

idea of safe but rare the idea that we

have to the idea replication language

like calling imagine she would prolong

all those things put them in a position

where they feel more different so yes

they were answer to a call that they

don't reckon that sure when it comes to

their own life

definitely about it I think to Lisa

I mean viability the idea that some

objective thing actually at 24 weeks

before Miramar we promised dead

was born in London they're probably

alive so you know evening the idea that

those things are not set in stone and I

think there's a real problem with the

idea that if a woman don't have a moral

capacity to make a decision about her

pregnancy but somehow she's in a really

good position to bring up the child but

she doesn't want company in extremely

difficult circumstances so I think it's

very fun to model head of austerity I'm

afraid it's Nima belt and make a

compromise that we think will support

early abortion and kind of shut up the

ante is about a really really complex

process and realities we might shut them

up

the more compromises you make is felt a

little bit and I don't think that I

don't think that any of of saying

anything

okay thanks to kind of policy discourse

is going on the interest of its women

segment States and on one hand concerned

about women being pushed into walking

too fast and on the other hand concerned

about five minutes and there were than

having brought in to date at the time it

is two days and I think he's trying to

communicate some interesting things

about this issue discussing politics

excitedly IP I do or believe that we

need to turn up have an abortion clinic

regressing in have been pushed

into it too fast you know a decision

that's working come I do think that the

incense whenever you know aside from

research experience people do too often

struggle with a decision and take a long

time to make up their minds and it

strikes me that the most hadn't said

I'll explain out and pretty such as

Britain that has a put four leaf with

we've been involuntarily with it I mean

you know he can say expect with it we've

gotta be to tie the only opened it's

time to see the relationship get back

together to see if it changes you about

they have a baby or television they kind

of make that decision

I'm usually it's very sensible civilized

and humane such a more respectful in

we're all for the fifty argue if you are

having attention tonight they know it

will because of the second photo which

they mind at all yeah that's that's it

sounded yeah I paid this time how

handsome policy maker squarely surviving

of wanna be concerned about Williams

ambivalence but on your hand pushing the

early decision little bit of fact I had

some end them from the minister

councilman excellence one portion in

three Britain is repeat now ladies have

in here that rights with child I'd like

the right of every child to be to be

wanted and loved by two parents and

don't like the idea of a petty parents

an axis power orphanage just gave the

full terms and just leaving their

childhood dungeon it's a little bit more

right to treat having to go further know

about it both the necessary right couple

of things the first obvious question

what the

pushing women to go make decisions

earlier or take your time that you know

I look through I would say American

Americans United for life rights a lot

of model legislation in the United

States there are the people who write

bills that then get introduced in all

the states so these are the seven the

legislative agenda for the pro-life

movement there and if you look here's

what your life stay on their site

restricting public funding for abortions

yeah we have nothing like DNA checks

ransom restricting public funding

restricting funny eliminating public

funding to Planned Parenthood that by

the way ends up cutting off Commerce

judgment services of family planning as

well as abortion restricting ru-486 or

mr. president rivers banning insurance

coverage of abortion informed consent

with waiting periods parental consent

and notification and clinic regulations

and when they talk about when I

regulations they're not a reasonable

clinic regulations their clinic

regulations designed to birdie and write

the plan together business what do all

these building out of the Congress now a

pro-life person say they protect life no

actually they don't what they do is they

all delay abortions every single one of

those things delays abortions so what

the pro-life movement is doing is

entirely counterproductive to what I'm

talking about which is making a decision

as early as responsibly cat and I

understand what you're saying about

taking the time to choose and I do

believe that when the woman shows up and

asks for the abortion almost universally

she's tearing needed to work 28 hours

just need the governor of the state to

tell her to take two more hit okay

she's thought it up and I think honestly

the thing that I most want to concede

instigate is I think that we've done a

pretty good job of keeping these numbers

okay this is a relatively rare problem

okay - on my mark he's gonna do feel the

urgency of the situation they come in

and they make the decision and that's

great they're taking care of it as early

if they can if we could we could you

know if the advent of re 26 has been

terrific

we have met of audiences taking place

within eight weeks that used to be

taking place if you look at the data at

you know nine to 12 weeks the Conger 7

has been great so all of this everything

we can do to drive a process factor

within what I hope is largely a

voluntary framework except that we get

to wait much later weeks I think is

terrific

one other thing let's see the some of

someone asks about the ISA - oh the wait

you know that here is in the UK the flip

to the continent you've got time to wait

three relationship to get back together

I'm sorry you don't you don't know how

long that's gonna take

and by the way that brings in male

responsibility something which I hope

we'll talk about you know and lists of

these women in games and proportions I

was pretty upset to see how many these

cases the guy is in meeting in the

middle of the pregnancy I mean she's

gonna have the baby and he leaves and

now she feels like she has to have the

abortion where you know with where these

men know why I hired and then not taking

responsibility and

binocular about that with some people

language event oh and they're

making decisions about very Wales that's

exactly not in the abstract

credibly clear-cut wrestle very shaded

it would make a different decision if

their circumstances the difference the

point that I'm constantly trying to come

back to is who should be in position to

make that decision

one of the most distressing well yeah it

was discussing changes that you know I

came across when I visited what about a

clinic was a clinic manager who was tiny

as a woman who was coming to a

reasonably late abortion and it asked

her to check the lottery numbers from

the lottery the night before because she

forgot to check whether she won the

lottery on the basis that if she won and

she wouldn't need to go through with the

abortion procedure now that to me is

really distressing the wrong decision or

right decision because clearly for her

she felt that was entirely a rational

way feel a little bit uncomfortable

but you know that means the day that

this is a teacher's life just to say on

whether there's anything that I would

regard as being too late I had a really

curious experiencing the right drug

start to do some work I had just been

delivered of mine much wanted baby 38

and weeks I was looking at some of the

statistics for the post 24 week and all

of the was listed down there I think of

36 weeks which is two weeks prior to my

child they really made me think about

what the experience of pregnancies like

at that stage and then all of the

experience of an abortion must be like

two castes and why some we must to make

that decision actually you know the

committee got some definition of trust

because either you think that woman is

about how immoral ever all talk about

and so the doctors that she has really

like morality as the particularly series

and I don't feel that I want to be in a

position where I stand behind that I

think that people generally do make very

sensitive decisions about this one and I

was really interested in looking at some

historical research that for weird

historical accidents Scotland did not

have at the time an abortionist all 1990

northern 28th didn't apply to Scotland

and there were no more late abortions in

Scotland England Wales the law that was

really regulated I mean it's interesting

if you look at the situation being

statistically produced about the number

of women that actually a blaze emotions

and yet it's not wildly different talk

about in the UK because women do not

need to tell them I don't think they've

got to

yes I did coming back to the woman who

came to the goshawk market and it says I

mean this is irrelevant whether what

gospel was because she's 100 anything

for an abortion

the the DA's report in Philadelphia says

she was at 29 weeks she changed her mind

she actually stopped the procedure she

had what was turned out to be a

perfectly healthy baby and that as a

monkey child a at that at 29 weeks do

you believe that the woman is right to

choose

under woman's right to choose you would

have said okay okay I'm diverse what I

would say is that what I

23 because I don't think this particular

six wings make some huge moral value

difference to me and what I find

interesting is there's you know a pin it

I think a lot of the people who work for

us or say that one of the most often

difficult things to do she is but I

think you know that to me seems to be an

issue the game is best worked out

between the people who are carrying out

people rather than needing is v-point

unreal imagines where doctors say I am

not prepared to carry out the procedure

under these circumstances I do not want

some happy abortion

what I find most telling about that

example is that things are getting very

little very strong leader of the tables

effectively and only just been told

about what's going to happen disposal

terrible terrible care because basically

what it did telling me that if you know

that a religious framework so let's get

good what's he care okay

coherent talk about the lateness of

abortion if this is it I'll be like you

mentioned the principle I might even

have to fill section and I was just

thinking about this whole thing about

the California in Berkeley I mean say

like the week before that an hour before

a minute before it's the whole thing

about about / a bit of skin and but it's

the whole thing about so it's like we

also talked about the consciousness of

the baby like like memory at 3 years old

but then again that the child the baby

would develop consciousness in isolation

is that whole thing about Society I

think people mention about being uneasy

about me but about providing emotionally

stuff like that because there's a

recognition in places that this group of

cells is potentially human being

/ defy the earth canal but is would it

be available to consider our soldiers

who talk about the viability of the

fetus it's like 24 weeks but what the

Year situation splinter actually that

thesis is viable 24 weeks for it because

because the child is taught the fetus is

totally dependent on the planet until

birth what about the situation if the

traumatic experience of being pregnant

was if babies wanted raising incubators

at 24 weeks with that is that whole

different scenario the bills not

addressed well no I mean so like give

women

questions have will again about you know

exactly when the limit would really

upset and so think about what what the

impact would be of that will do not

expect abortion at that stage in their

life decisions that we agonize over for

complex for social or medical reasons

which is an example from the perspective

of genetic cancer and the option of

termination is important asleep in and

sometimes is that's a necessary actor at

the option to latest age because the

issue and we appeared that that so did

not young twenty weeks

yeah that'd be like the balances of

picked up and actually even at that

mentally sound it may be unclear what

these abnormalities immediately with

further steps to try to get down there

just to be able to get any information

I will be fed chemicals

another example would be with school

pregnancies okay we have been planting

once we picked up live at an early stage

but if you were to terminate that one

free then the risk of miscarriage so

obviously it moves it as if people want

the optional opportunity for that child

so you know it's something that I'm not

an old ago magic question personhood

because I have something happened to me

recently which is my mother waiting for

procedure and something happened during

a procedure when she came out her

personality changed in every way there

she said that she was sending the

hostile and self-centered the color she

liked changed the language that she was

chained and it was this very odd

situation where you have someone who

looks and sounds exactly like the person

has in her life but who is not it he was

like a stranger who is not personally

they extract me that the personhood is

it

I think person it has to be much more

and justice if it's simply a laundry

list of developmental milestones because

so much of who we are is about the

relationships that we have with other

people's attention relationships and you

know just in the case of my mother she

is a stranger but she has to go to

different relationship

me and so in a pushy person and I think

that you know if he started to kind of

take this social aspect into

consideration then I think it is

possible to draw a line because um

because when one person is within a

within another person the actuality of

that situation is that did that person

it is effective because without

violating the autonomy of the woman

who's carrying that person there is no

potential for anything beyond that

so once a child for various a

contentious because the because there is

potential for other people to to

interact in to that person like to hurt

so you know you can have a child who's

moving up for adoption at birth but I

think that we have to draw the line

somewhere and it's to move it you know

we have a richer understanding of

personhood then clearly

at 7.30 in many ways will you you seem

to try to find the point of principle in

biology and I think you're just going to

fail it doesn't matter how sophisticated

the disease doesn't matter how well it

is harvested in reality AIDS it's never

going to amount to a person and the

reason to that is that even fish

swimming around and they're of Genesis

week in Georgia to accounting suggests

it's still not enough to make a person

and the reason being the rumors of the

Walton place to make persons we don't

make persons in foods who make persons

out here in the world so I I think is

you going to fail to find anyway because

you look people in in the woods and then

I think you are becoming hostage to the

argument that well yes okay that's not

mental to make persons but stuff is

necessary versus happening sir and I

don't believe that but now you're a

danger of being basically back in the

corner saying oppose abortion because

the one thing is clear yet so is

fertilization and so I think either we

question that position because it's the

logic but the stance that you're saying

here and it also mean avoiding at an

important principle which is that every

point in the pregnancy the business is

physiologically sunk into the woman it

is a part and it women are going to fail

to lead wise the big things by or they

want to do and not they say final file

is forcing them to do then they need

access to abortion all the time they're

pregnant so they can leave their lives

that does change a point of birth you're

right is not a biological point of

pastures eyesight

for departure but it is a practical

point of departure now the influence is

separate from the woman and society been

back on the infant completely

independently of the woman woman now is

to go up and the sewer life

independently of baby was predicted

because it's not mean dictated to you by

that particular part of physiology so I

think you're missing that point of

principle and you've told me too

so you've shot in this point about

viability and you know the public

recognize my abilities being important

and I think you right for that kind of

worries me in this room I think wills on

the back possibly knows quite a lot of

when he reported late as necessary out

in the real world I think you'll find

that there is a sort of the sense that

there's appointments too late then why

argue about exactly where it is from the

certain sense that it's it's too late

and that's being informed by but as the

science about my bones has been appalled

by Joe Campbell scored an actual

interviews and informed by debates about

what these can do in the movie now and

you open the door a little bit about me

I'm hearing a lot of argument that to me

leads to the conclusion that abortion

should be permitted at least up until

birth I'm really hearing a lot of

arguments at least at conclusion I don't

know how you escaped it now if you're

willing to embrace that conclusion I

mean I can't talk you out of it I think

it's great but if you can take that and

I'm not even sure that it's stopping

burden because it's a gentleman point

under if you take the principle that

nothing in biology can dissolve this you

know birth birth is actually a

biological phenomena and if that if that

biological line doesn't matter you no

need to dip the capacities in that of

the fetus that it's it's just an hour

different from what it was before I'm

not quite sure that there's that there's

grounds for protecting it that when I

had a channel pointed out that it is no

longer dependent on the one but I would

point out that if you look at the data

on viability at I think it's about 30%

chance of survival if you're born at 23

weeks 24 weeks he goes up above 50 and

then it goes up to 75 or 25 weeks

and that into the 90s so you you know by

it somebody has heard their which is

that it would be is word to be boring at

that point it is not dependent anymore

it has a longer faculty to survive yeah

you would have to get the woman to

deliver she she is going to have surgery

anyway she's going to have a delivery

anyway I mean you could have the this

illiterate as a premature infant and it

would survive and so I think we should

think about whether at that point when

it would survive delivery we have the

right to kill it saying basically well

it's in my body it grew in my body it's

still there so I don't want you even

though I could give birth to it and it

went out 75% chance of survival or 9/10

chance I don't want it I don't want to I

don't want to be a mother to this baby

please get ready and I hope we'll all

think about whether that's what we want

to go dick yeah one of the ringing here

is this is this whole discussion has

been in terms of what should be legal or

not and in pretty get prohibition and I

want us to think about other things

besides the law that where we can think

about doing things earlier for example

will be brought up genetic counselor

okay that's exactly that's exactly right

you something something you discover

something in a scan at a certain number

of weeks and now you have information

that if you once you know it and I can't

have this baby what technology has done

is to make these to open a lot of cases

to make it possible to ascertain

defects per liter and that's not just

true of genetic defects that I think

that in general any factor that is

relevant of woman's abortion decision

should be brought in as early as

possible and that includes the Menace as

to what and said about that Eric exactly

right so we wonder if these women in

earlier month only people to have access

earlier to be able to afford it and

someone to talk to her and and and

explain the situation public should be

coming in at 20 weeks saying I had no

idea that I you know was pregnant I I

and some you know there's some fact in

my life is going to prevent it's gonna

be that I now have that abortion why

doesn't that information was available

to her earlier we make the information

available and make the access available

earlier and let's try to move these

decisions as early as possible within a

framework for choice while I'm here

and one of the things that concerns me

and about the trajectory in the argument

is that and I think business behind a

lot of the discussion that's been going

on there is this notion that somehow if

we just organize things differently the

demand for labor could be a minute

because lady fortune Reynolds I think

that what we be trying to explain

here is the reasons why women requested

these procedures rates are are

incredibly complex and incredibly shaded

and it's not simply a question of

providing easier access to expose go at

the front i completely throw my hands up

and say that intellectually I knew very

difficult to defend I don't think I

would be able to what I would say being

interested in do you know what to say

about this is that it seems to me that

if I'm going to make customizing and if

I'm going to accept our public policy

level the morning the latest necessarily

an extension

this does seem to be a point which I

didn't maybe maybe just see some things

in slightly positively different now the

reason why I'm saying that I'm stating

something slightly different is the look

at as well that the process of the

portion of these that that very late

exchange is effective in the induction

available what we do it in the 2223

these locks 24 weeks it's carrying out a

piece of sidewall injections make sure

to ensure that there is not going to be

alive but now I am not sure how doctors

would speak about carrying out those

procedures at a later stage which

statistically there was a higher chance

the baby would didn't collide it could

be kept

where

it's not one but it is very small since

first of all I'd like to say that

woman's ignorance begins a lot time

before there are permanent and lots of

different things come I meet women who

have no idea how I've got pregnant

what they do is admit Nancy they don't

even understand what pregnancy test is

doing or what it's telling them apart

from the fact that they know that

they're married so I think that's a very

difficult case to do it is also very

difficult to be a woman who told all the

way along the line that she was within

the legal limits to then come to our

clinic and discover that actually she is

over that minute

that one's decision-making process does

not change because someone says to her

she is now 26 weeks her reasons for not

being able to continue that pregnancy

have not changed in any way but her

dilemma is she's now forced to consuming

that presidency and you know I think the

law public opinion doesn't nothing for

that one none of them in a few and I was

human far between what we need to

support them because if she's saying she

is not able to continue this tenancy she

is not able to do that I think that the

foundation of this discussion is a bit

of a red herring actually and that is

the question when does an abortion

we contact the violence against a person

and I think we've seen that none of the

landmarks of peaceful development stand

up to scrutiny and can be used to draw a

line and I also think that the answer

separation is not important if we

acknowledge that which is always kind of

like an act of violence against the

pieces the amount of violence involved

is more apps seven months and it is t

minus a pregnancy but it's always

justified for the point of the wrong

decision because it seems to do a lot of

energy interests of embodied in wrong

decisions rather than supporting what we

assumed my right decisions I'm saying

this because I come from the country but

you can have an abortion only up to 12

weeks and I know under how much stretch

this puts women actually the addition of

the criminalize is going to be duly

unfortunately what has to happen for 20

weeks pregnant and didn't know they was

pregnant I actually I came across one

which is very recently and just I once

imagined organ donation providing is no

coincidence at Germany which is the

compas other country which is very low

serotonin an audience because the mother

who wants to donate a kidney to a child

a very positive act is also assumed to

be taking a wrong decision she has to

see a series of psychologists

she has to go through ethics committee

to be allowed to do this and I think

it's the same

we have a conversation people disagree I

leave thinking about whether the

principle of subjectivity that that the

individual should have the wayside only

they decide whether that principle has

any limits because what I hear is an

absolutist without that principle and

it's a deep anxiety about what happens

we limit that principle but I think that

this recent grant

we should think very seriously are

probably very seriously about whether if

you send that without your with

exhibitions and the boilers they push

upstairs and the highest voltage